Talk:Pow-wow (folk magic)

Previous discussions without headers

Should this be a disambiguation page with the two topis as Pow-wow (gathering) and Pow-wow (folk magic), and then possibly add Pow-wow (music)?

oops, forgot to sign. Gentgeen 07:52, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It depends how much there is to write about Pow-wow as a gathering. If it isn't going to be expanded beyond what it currently is, it could just stay here. If it could be a proper article, then a disambiguation would be good. Angela 07:58, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)

well, I could expand it, but I'm a little hesitant because I only know about powwows in California, so don't feel qualified to write the whole article myself.Gentgeen 08:20, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well that would be a start. It doesn't have to perfect straight away. If you think it has potential to develop into an article, then I'd say go for it. Angela 08:40, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)

ok, I'll put this on my to do list. Gentgeen

By all means write about pow-wows. Whether we need a separate page may ultimately depend on how much you write. If you separate the two, it will of course be needful to go back and change the pages that link here to point to the right page. (What is "pow-wow" as a music genre, anyways?) -- Smerdis of Tlön 17:35, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Powwow music is the music sung at a Native American powwow. It generally consists of multiple voice and drum accompanyment, in a chanting style. It is further divided into (generally) two styles, Northern and Southern, and then each has various types of songs to use for particular dances. At every powwow I've been to the music is performed live by between 2 and 15 drums (the name of the group as well as the instrument), each with between 5 and 20 singers. Various Native American recordings, including powwow music and native flute, can be purchased from Canyon Records, among others. - keep forgetting to sign Gentgeen 22:06, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC) -

I've got a start up on my page, User:Gentgeen/Pow-wow (gathering). Gentgeen 23:15, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

If i remeber correctly there was a cartoon called Pow-wows about native american bears. - fonzy

ok looked it up and i was wrng it was the paw paws. but tere was a cartoon called: "The Adventures of Pow Wow" and the cartoon character Pow Wow Wolf. - fonzy

---

Ok, I've got the article on Pow-wow gatherings ready to go, but I'd like to get some aggrement on how to split the articles. I propose that the Pow-wow page be about the Native American gatherings and a new page Pow-wow (folk magic) be assigned for the folk magic meaning. My reasons are that I get 76K+ hits on Google for Pow-wow Native American and 98K+ hits for Pow-wow Indian, but only ~ 6,600 hits for Pow-wow folk magic. When I searched just for Pow-wow, 15 of the top 20 hits were for Native American gatherings, 2 were for software programs, one was for a water cooler, one for a bicycle tour company, and one for a school newspaper. Any comments? Gentgeen 08:39, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Move the current one to Pow-wow (folk magic), and move User:Gentgeen/Pow-wow (gathering) to Pow-wow. You'll need a sysop to delete the redirect after you move Pow-wow. Do you want me to do that now? Angela

OK, I've moved the old file to Pow-wow (folk magic), and am going figuring out which link needs to go where. If you'd like to delete the redirect, please do so. Thanks. Gentgeen 10:01, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ok, done. I've added the disambiguation parts at the bottom of each page too. I don't think a separate disambiguation page is needed unless Pow-wow (folk magic) is written as well, so maybe that can be done in the future. Angela 10:27, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)

Confused about origins

By the article in Wikipedia, The first Europeans that saw the Natives engaged in Pau Wau - translated it to Pow Wow (to indicate the dance gathering).

But

Your article about Pow Wow (folk magic) says that the term was European (indicating to me that it originated in Europe). Is this a mistake on my part? Or does the name Pow Wow refer to the Europeanized version of Pau Wau?

My burning question is:

Did the European folk magic (Pow Wow) idea originate & influence the Natives or were the Natives already engaged in Pow Wow's (Pau Wau) - or are we talking about to different intrepretations of Pow Wow that evolved separately?

Thanks

fmfalcao@netscape.net

I am not sure what you are asking. This article, at least, says that the native name was merely borrowed and applied to a pre existing tradition of European-derived folk magic. I understand that "pow wow" originally meant shaman, so this may be the connection. -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:07, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

fmfalcao, they are two different things. The term Pow-Wow was borrowed by european-american settlers and applied to their already existing body of folk-medicine/folk-magic. The Pow-Wow that THIS article refers to is not at all derived from Native American sources. Rather, it is an amalgamation of several traditions most notably, Western European pagan practices, Esoteric Jewish Magic (Kabalah) and herbal medicine. It's a fascinating subject and I'd like to expand on this article some in the future.Lisapollison 17:19, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Hex signs

I just wanted to mention that this article and hex signs seem to be in direct opposition. The hex signs article leans toward saying they started purely decoritive in nature and have been appropriated by people giving it a magical nature, while this article basically says the opposite.

On making good beer

The paragraph 'Quotations' is ended with the sentence: "A note from someone that is an actual brewer, this is not a recomended recipe, it will most likely give you a very gingery, and cidery brew that will not likely be pleasant. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/brewing for better info." Obviously this needs a citation of some kind, or at least rewritten. What would be the best way to rewrite this? -Shai-kun 21:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I was just wondering the same thing, it sounds odd and a little sloppy. Reignbow 15:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes - the beer recipe is just a sample of the contents of the text, put in to give an indication of the breadth of its concerns, and its mixture of the supernatural with the domestic. Like the spells, it comes with no guarantee. - Smerdis of Tlön 15:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Roman Catholicism cite in the article

I can understand the person calling Pow Pow a mix of:

Roman Catholic prayers, magic words, and simple rituals

but, how accurate is that? No doubt some of the folk magic and spells in Pow Wow predates the Protestant Reformation but the groups that Pow Pow originated with were certainly not Roman Catholic. They were Anabaptist in origin. Indeed the man who wrote the book from which many of their commonly used spells come, John George Hohman was himself of similar religious leanings. Would it not be more appropriate to simply subsitute the word Christian where the word Roman Catholic is now used? Pow Wow borrows from the Bible but it's origins are mix of Christian folk beliefs, various european pagan beliefs, herbalism, common sense, simple medicine and Jewish esoterica.Lisapollison 16:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Pow-wow is Braucherei in PA German

Powwow was a word the English colonists applied first to any gathering of American Indians and then to the apparently unrelated practice of religious healing among the Pennsylvania Dutch, or Germans. The German word for the same system is Braucherei, and its practitioners are called Brauchers. But powwow and powwowers remain more commonly used.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20091005_Another_medical_alternative.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brenthere (talk • contribs) 00:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Starting to clean up this article

I am interested in starting to clean up this article. I just wanted to put that notification out there that I hope to start work on improving this article in the next couple of weeks Eliasell (talk) 18:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Correction of Title - discarding hyphenation

Does anyone know how to get rid of the hyphenation in the title? It's entirely unnecessary, and has been discarded by scholars in the field for the past 60 years or more. see "Powwowing: A Persistent American Esoteric Tradition, David W Kriebel, Ph.D." in the sources section. Although Brown is cited in this article and uses the hyphenation, his work is outdated. Paedrig777 (talk) 17:54, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

a necessary rewrite

I am going to begin the process of rewriting this page over the next several weeks in order to provide a better summary of the tradition. This article does not even describe the most basic aspects of what powwowing is, and needs more citation of the solid sources that are available online, by Don Yoder, David Kriebel, and others. Paedrig777 (talk) 23:02, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

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das-familia-triffin / Real Amish Witches

I understand including this "documentary" in the Popular Culture section, yet should it really be used as a source for a detail ("das-familia-triffin" custom) given in the article? The IMDB reviews of the "documentary" are not mixed--it currently has two one-star reviews--and both refer to the documentary as likely fake. It doesn't seem like something that should be used as a credible source.

(I have no Wikipedia account or username.) 2600:6C4A:1B3F:9E28:CD41:E920:3AAA:5A5E (talk) 10:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed move to new title: Braucherei

The current title of the article, Pow-wow (folk magic) is cultural appropriation using a Native American word to describe a Pennsylvania Dutch-American cultural "folk magic" practice. As such it is inaccurate, and possibly culturally insensitive. This folk magic practice did not include Native American peoples, nor was it a Native American ceremonial or celebratory practice. The article should be moved to the actual word for the Pennsylvania Dutch folk magic practice: Braucherei.

A google n-gram search found that Powwowing (plural for the folk-magic phenomenon) was trending downwards in use through the years, whereas Braucherei was trending upwards. Brauche was used as well but not as frequently as Braucherei, and Brauchau received no hits.

Feedback is requested. I will also be posting this on the Wikipedia Project Indigenous peoples of North America talk page. Pinging @Yuchitown: because there was discussion on their talk page about this matter. Netherzone (talk) 01:16, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

• Support. Concise, clear. Much better to use the Pennsylvania Dutch term than a confusing slang term, and braucherei is well-represented in scholarly literature [1]. Also, reading through the comments on this talk page, the current name has been a source of confusion for years now. Yuchitown (talk) 01:57, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support Per Netherzone and Yuchitown, to avoid confusion and offense and to be accurate to the original culture. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 08:48, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support per nom PersusjCP (talk) 00:16, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support per nom Bcbc24 (talk) 13:56, 16 March 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose until WP:COMMONNAME is sorted. As demonstrated below, "powwow" or "pow-wow" is indeed the WP:COMMONNAME (Example: "For better or for worse, powwowing is the most common designation today for the ritual traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch" (Donmoyer 2017:13)). Wikipedia does not prescribe use, we describe it through WP:RS. We have entries on no shortage of distasteful, shocking, and you-name-it topics. Folk practice and folk belief often do not align with contemporary mainstream sentiments, including the common use of pow-wow in this context. Additionally, Wikipedia is not censored (WP:CENSOR) and our function as Wikipedia editors is not to 'right great wrongs' (WP:RGW). "Cultural insensitivity" is not an acceptable reason to change a title, we must demonstrate WP:COMMONNAME. For what it is worth, I would personally prefer this to be Braucherei or similar but our function is not self-appointed word police and we must use the most commonly used term. Until that is demonstrated to not be pow-wow, no matter how much we may dislike the use of the word, this is a strong oppose from me. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:04, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

• Comment WP:COMMONNAME applies. Sources cited in the article use "powwowing". Better evidence of the prevalence of "Braucherei" needed. 162 etc. (talk) 00:29, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

  Respectfully 162etc., you are incorrect, the current title is inaccurate; it is a cultural appropriation. Pow-wow is the "common name" for Native American gatherings, not for early Dutch/German American religious "folk magic" practices. The Dutch/German American event did not include Native American people, nor did Indigenous people participate in these events. @Yuchitown is correct that Braucherei is well documented in the scholarly literature, where as "pow-wow" is used in the slang vernacular of the time. Netherzone (talk) 01:12, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

  User:Yuchitown cites Google Scholar. Looking at those results, almost all of them refer to "powwowing" or similar. WP:COMMONNAME asks us to use "the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources.) " Based on the evidence that has been presented thus far, I'm unconvinced that "Braucherei" is that name.

  I am not particularly concerned with the so-called cultural appropriation aspect. See WP:RGW. 162 etc. (talk) 01:46, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

  @Yuchitown:, you wrote: "Pow-wow is the "common name" for Native American gatherings, not for early Dutch/German American religious "folk magic" practices". Words can and typically do have multiple semantic values. This is one such instance. On Wikipedia we do not tell any group of people what to do, we describe what people do. Wikipedia is not censored and we do not write articles to appease any ethnic group, corporation, or government. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:13, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

  I did not write that. This is obviously triggering a very emotional response for you. User:162 etc. says that almost all of the results mention "powwowing"; however, many do not, and it remains an imprecise slang term that has generated great confusion through the years. Braucherei is the term created and used by the those engaging in this practice. Using the precise and concise term, we are being accurate used by the practitioners has nothing to do with "tell[ing] any group of people what to do" nor is it any kind of censorship since obviously the slang term would appear in the article and be a redirect as well. Yuchitown (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

  It was I, not Yuchi that said: "Pow-wow is the "common name" for Native American gatherings, not for early Dutch German American religious "folk magic" practices." And I stand by that statement. I have reviewed the academic sources that were linked, and there are excellent sources that use Braucherei, and others that use "powwowing", rather than pow-wow. The word pow-wow in this usage is being borrowed from the Narragansett word "powwaw"; the Narragansett people lived hundreds of miles away from Pennsylvania. So yes, it is a cultural appropriation. Braucherei is the correct term, and it is indeed concise and precise; both powwowing and pow-wow are American slang. BTW, I am not remotely interested censorship and especially not interested in censoring the encyclopedia, nor am I trying to "right great wrongs" as has been implied by two editors above. For the record, I said that the term could be "possibly culturally insensitive" which is a far, far cry from censorship. Please folks, such aspersions are not constructive to this discussion. Netherzone (talk) 20:15, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

  First, both of you repeatedly lean into the notion that "cultural appropriation" has any relevance in what we title articles. It does not: WP:CENSOR and WP:RGW. All that matters here is WP:COMMONNAME. Second, you both express much confusion about linguistics as a topic ("pow-wow", "powwow", etc, here is what is known as a loanword and languages are full of them) and you seem to insist on prescription: While you dismiss the term as "American slang" (which wouldn't matter were it true), the word in fact has a long history in this sense, reaching back to the 1700s. It is notably used in the title of the late 1800s English editions of the Pennsylvania German grimoire Pow-Wows; or, Long Lost Friend, a foundational text for Pennsylvania German folk magic. Without data, this just sounds like another case of Wikipedia:I just don't like it and that's not how we make decisions on Wikipedia. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:32, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Source discussion

According to this source American Myths, Legends, and Tall Tales: An Encyclopedia of American Folklore on the bottom of page 158 states this folk magic practice is properly called braucherie or brauche in Pennsylvania Dutch, but also called powwowing, but again the proper term is braucherie. According to this source Folklore: An Encyclopedia of Beliefs, Customs, Tales, Music, and Art, Second Edition the word powwow for this practice became more used in the 20th century around World War II when authors and publishers used the word powwow in their titles to attract susceptible Dutchmen and offer folk magic services. The word powwow was added in advertisements to attract a Dutch clientele. If I am understanding this, the word powwow for this practice became more popular around World War II. In this source, Powwowing in Pennsylvania Braucherei and the Ritual of Everyday Life on the bottom of page 16 it reads that practitioners of this folk magic tradition are guilty of cultural appropriation. In this source on page 47, in the 18th and 19th centuries some German Americans traveled from place to place and styled themselves as "Indian healers" and sold cure-all bottles, these Indian healers called themselves "powwow doctors." Native American spirituality was popular, and some people used Indigenous traditions to make a profit. According to this source, America Bewitched: The Story of Witchcraft After Salem on page 24, the word powwow to describe this practice didn't become popular until the 20th century. According to this source, American Indian Culture From Counting Coup to Wampum 2 Volumes the book states the word was appropriated by German American folk healers who tried to mimic Native American spiritual ceremonies. German Americans called the healing herbs and charms they used, powwow, meaning to powwow their patients. They sold cure all bottles that had alcohol and opium in them and were sold at "medicine shows". In this source, in the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect it's known as Braucherie or Brauche. Also in this source, in the footnote it states that the word powwow may be a mishearing of the word power in the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect. So the word powwow was used prior to the 20th century, but it became popular in the 20th century, and the proper word for this practice is braucherei, if I'm reading the sources correctly. Hoodoowoman (talk) 23:05, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

In this source the author prefers to use the Deitsch term which is Braucherei and writes practitioners use powwow but this author uses Braucherei in their writing when referring to the practice. In this source which is a graduate paper submitted by a student from Duke University, on page 79 it reads: "Even more intriguing is the continuation of “Braucherei,” the folk-healing practice of powwowing within the plain and fancy Dutch communities. Although the term “powwow” was appropriated from the Algonquian language, Braucherei began long before the European Reformation and was brought to Pennsylvania by German-speaking immigrants." According to three sources, the word was appropriated from Indigenous people. Hoodoowoman (talk) 14:21, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

References

Thank you for providing these. Assessing WP:RS is the way to productively move forward and discussion like this is also useful for article development. Let's take a closer look at what these sources say.

• Entry "Braucher Stories (Pennsylvania Dutch)" in Fee, Christopher; Webb, Jeffrey (2016). American Myths, Legends, and Tall Tales: An Encyclopedia of American Folklore, p. 158. Bloomsbury. (My bold)

The traditional healing methods practiced among these communities, known commonly as "powwowing" but more properly called brauche or braucherei in Pennsylvania Dutch, include the use of charms, amulets, incantations, and the recitation of spells, often in tandem with ritual acts. Speaking the proper words in the proper formulation is important, as is the knowledge of concurrent rites.

In other words, the common English term used for this variety of Pennsylvania German folk practice is "powwow" (or pow-wow), whereas in Pennsylvania German it is "properly" ("properly" left undefined) referred to as brauche or braucherei.

• Entry in "Pennsylvania Dutch folklore" in Mccormick, Charlie, et al. (2010). Folklore: An Encyclopedia of Beliefs, Customs, Tales, Music, and Art, 2nd ed, p. 969. ABC-CLIO.

The Pennsylvania Dutch word for powwowing is Brauche or Braucherei, and for powwow practitioners, Braucher. Synonyms in English include "to use" and "to try for," although my most important powwow contact, Sophia Bailer of Tremont in Schuylkill County, preferred "calling a blessing on" the patient. In the past few decades, there have been several new and novel developments in the field of powwow medicine. The proliferation of "Indian Readers" and "Healers by Prayer" in the Eastern cities following World War Il also has been registered in the Dutch country. Several of these practitioners have subtly added the word powwow to their printed advertisements, usually broadsides, distributed in parking lots and other city venues to attract susceptible Dutchmen to their services.

• Donmoyer, Patrick J. (2017). Powwowing in Pennsylvania: Braucherei & Ritual in Everyday Life, p. 13. Pennsylvania German Heritage Center. (My bold)

Although the word "powwow" is certainly Native American in origin, this term has also been used extensively since the eighteenth century to describe American healing practices of European origin. For better or for worse, powwowing is the most common designation today for the ritual traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch. These practices are not to be confused with Native American traditions of the same name. Nonetheless, certain similarities with other traditional and indigenous healing systems may indeed be part of the reason that this term developed such a distinctive connotation in Pennsylvania.

Note that Donmoyer is a specialist and an authority on this topic and he outright states what we're looking for to meet WP:COMMONNAME: powwow is "the most common designation today for the ritual traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch".

• Browner, Tara. "Contemporary Native American Pow-wow Dancing (2000)" in I See America Dancing Selected Readings, 1685-2000, p. 47. University of Illinois Press.

The word "pow-wow" is probably derived from the words pau wow, a Narragansett term glossed as "he/she dreams" that was used to denote a specific type of doctoring used by traditional healers in those northeastern Native societies. Early European settlers of Germanic origin picked up the word while traveling through Massachusetts on their way to Pennsylvania, and practitioners of Pennsylvania German folk medicine— known as "Powwow doctors" _ coined the term "powwowing" to describe their use of herbal medicines.

• Davies, Owen. 2013. America Bewitched: The Story of Witchcraft After Salem, p. 24. Oxford University Press.

The terminology of magic and witchcraft provides a fascinating indication of the often imperceptible cultural exchanges that took place. Every immigrant brought and used the language of his or her homeland, so no doubt Poles, Croatians, and Swedes in America continued to complain of the czarownice, jestice, and häxor in their midst. But English, German, Native-American, and African-American terms would come to diffuse widely across the population. The Native-American 'pow-wow' is thought to be of Algonquin origin, and seventeenth-century English colonists used it to refer to Native-American medicine men, although it also had a meaning as a communal, ritual meeting. By the twentieth century its usage was widespread amongst the Pennsylvania Dutch to describe a distinctive type of folk healer or 'doctor' who used magic charms, herbs, and the Bible, with the act of healing being described as 'pow-wowing'. But while the word derived from Native Americans, the practices concerned did not. ([Note]: It is likely that the term became pervasive thanks to its inclusion in the title of a popular printed collection of charms of German origin, the Long Lost Friend. The term 'power doctor' recorded in the Ozarks for a similar category of magical healer probably derives from 'pow-wow.') While the German term 'braucherei to describe the same faith-based healing as pow-wow medicine did not permeate beyond the German speaking community, the term for a witch, 'hex' (hexerei, witchcraft), became engrained in American popular idiom.

• Kriebel, David (2007). Powwowing Among the Pennsylvania Dutch A Traditional Medical Practice in the Modern World, p. 13. Pennsylvania State University Press.

Powwowing is not to be confused with the Native American "pow-wow," although individuals of Native American descent have practiced powwowing in the Pennsylvania Dutch tradition, and some powwowers claim that Native American spirit guides have assisted them in conducting healing rituals. While the origin of the term is obscure,' powwowing is known as Brauche, or Braucherei, in the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect. These dialect terms are often translated as "trying," although other meanings have been proposed, including "blessing" (as a mistranscription of the Hebrew baruch) and "needing or wanting" (from the High German verb brauchen), or "using" (from the High German verb gebrauchen). Practitioners are referred to as "powwowers," the term used in this article, but also as "powwows," "powwow doctors," "brau doctors," "Brauchers," "Brauch doctors," "hex doctors" or, rarely, in Pennsylvania Dutch, Hexenmeisters. Those who oppose the practice use the terms "witch" or "sorcerer" or the Pennsylvania Dutch term "Hex." The infinitive form of the verb "to powwow" in the dialect, is Brauchen ("to powwow" in English).

In short, these sources use powwow as the priamry term and/or note that this is the most commonly used term. Together, these sources clearly demonstrate that the most common English term here is certainly powwow, verifying powwow as the term to use for this practice for WP:COMMONNAME. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:58, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 17 March 2025

Pow-wow (folk magic) → Braucherei – Pow-wow (folk magic) should be moved to Braucherei, as it is the correct term for the folk-magic practice. Pow-wow is a cultural appropriation from Native American language for the practice that has nothing to do with Native Americans, nor did they participate in this "folk magic". Please see discussion on article talk page for more information. The discussion was unanimous that the article should be moved. There was already a redirect for Braucherei, which I blanked, but Twinkle will not let me move the Pow-wow (folk magic) article to that name, therefore assistance is needed. Thank you in advance. Netherzone (talk) 23:53, 16 March 2025 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). C F A 21:29, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

• I'll note that while there was talk page discussion, an actual RM was never opened. Better evidence needed to determine the WP:COMMONNAME. 162 etc. (talk) 00:31, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
• Not a technical request. Clearly needs discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2025 (UTC)
• Support. WP:Concise and WP:PRECISE. Much clearer to use the Pennsylvania Dutch term than a confusing slang term. Braucherei is the term used by the originators of this practice but is well-represented in scholarly English-language literature [2]. Also, reading through the comments on this talk page, the current name has been a source of confusion for years now. There's no censorship, as has been claimed above, since the slang term will still appear in the article as an alternative name and a redirect. Another positive for using Bracherei is that it can be distinguished from Urglaawer and Hexerei. Yuchitown (talk) 16:27, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Note that this user repeatedly refers to powwow as "slang". This is incorrect. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:50, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

• Support, per my previous comment above. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 20:43, 18 March 2025 (UTC)
• Comment In case anyone missed it, there is extensive and ongoing discussion about this subject going on at Talk:Pow-wow (folk magic)#Proposed move to new title: Braucherei that needs to be considered along with the arguments here. 162 etc. (talk) 22:25, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

  This section is formal proposal to move. Yuchitown (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, and interested editors should consider the above discussion before voting here. 162 etc. (talk) 16:33, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. WP:COMMONNAME as pow-wow has now clearly been established above through multiple WP:RS (example: "For better or for worse, powwowing is the most common designation today for the ritual traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch" (Donmoyer 2017:13)") and "... the word “powwow” ... is the most common designation today for the ritual traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch." ([3]) see also lots of recent material from for example Kutztown University of Pennsylvania (like "Patrick Donmoyer on Pennsylvania Dutch Powwowing" (2019). Note that nearly every editor lobbying to have this changed in the section above has repeatedly expressed that they want the title changed because they deem it "cultural appropriation" and "culturally insensitive" (see WP:RGW). Relevant here is WP:CENSOR and Wikipedia:Advocacy but especially WP:NPOV. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:15, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

  I've never said that. Please don't put words in people's mouths. Yuchitown (talk) 00:51, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  In your case, you've repeatedly referred to the word "pow-wow" as used by the Pennsylvania Germans as "slang". You're incorrect: the word is used commonly and formally (and in fact positively) inside and outside the in-group, in this case the Pennsylvania Germans when speaking English. All indications are that this has been the case into the 1800s and even into the 1700s. Objectively, Pow-wow in this context is just another loanword into the speech of the region, like any other number of loans into, for example, English from the the native languages of the Americas (like tomato from Nahuatl or maize from Taíno and many, many other examples). Borrowing words from neighboring language families is a typical example of cultural diffusion. Please become familiar with these terms and concepts before invoking them (this is basic linguistics stuff: [4] ). Finally, were the word in fact slang, it would have no bearing on WP:COMMONNAME. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:06, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

• Support. WP:PRECISE. In addition to the WP:RS mentioned in this talk page discussion, I also checked more recent coverage (<10 yrs) in newspaper articles (e.g. The Patriot News/Harrisburg, PA; The Express-Times/Easton, PA; The Taylorville Daily Breeze Courier/Taylorville, IL.). Consistently, references note that both "powwow" and "braucherei" are acceptable terms for this folk magic practice. Therefore, as long as the Wikipedia article continues to use terms such as "powwow," "powwowing," and "powwower" as needed per support of sources, changing the title to "Braucherei" would be recognizable and natural while being more precise. Bcbc24 (talk) 13:59, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, Wikipedia:Article titles states in WP:COMMONNAME that "some topics have multiple names, and some names have multiple topics; this can lead to disagreement about which name should be used for a given article's title" and names should "fit the five criteria listed above": Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Concision, and Consistency. One criteria does not trump the other four. A reminder that the current title is not "powwowing" but "Pow-wow (folk magic)," a phrase that never appears verbatim in Google Scholar. COMMONNAME also states that "Ambiguous ... names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." The term "pow-wow" is ambigious and confusing, as evidenced by years of discussion on this talk page. Yuchitown (talk) 17:02, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

This is false. First, there's nothing ambigious about pow-wow (folk magic). The paranthesis disambiguates. A future move to "pow-wow (Pennsylvania German folk practice)" is another option. But most importantly, the English language WP:COMMONNAME has been and remains pow-wow as unambigiously evidenced by numerous WP:RS, like: "For better or for worse, powwowing is the most common designation today for the ritual traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch" (Donmoyer 2017:13))" Most concerning is the reason most editors here are pushing to have the article changed: A clear attempt at WP:RGW. This is evidenced by numerous statements above. That is not acceptable because WP:NPOV is a core Wikipedia pillar and Wikipedia is not censored (WP:CENSOR). :bloodofox: (talk) 22:33, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

That suggestion would be even less WP:CONCISE. All five criteria matter. Yuchitown (talk) 23:52, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

The current title is prefectly WP:CONCISE and there is absolutely no question that powwow is the most commonly used term for this folk practice in both scholarship and anyone familiar with it. WP:RGW crusades are not acceptable. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:25, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

• Support - Strong support per WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:PRECISE, and the rationales put forward above by Bohemian Baltimore, Yuchitown, Bcbc24, and others in the proposal above (as well as my own previous comments). Braucherei meets the criteria of: Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Concision, and Consistency. As noted above Pow-wow (folk magic) is not supported in RS and is therefore ambiguous. Netherzone (talk) 18:22, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Pow-wow (folk magic) is parenthetically disambiguated and not realistically ambiguous with Pow-wow. Powwowing has been a primary redirect to this article for over ten years, and seemingly has not caused ambiguity concerns during that time. 162 etc. (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

WP:RGW is not an acceptable rationale to move an article (also WP:CENSOR and WP:NPOV). This has also gotten to a point where an attempt at WP:RGW has led to dishonesty: Even the quickest glance at WP:RS show that powwow is without question the most commonly used term for this folk practice. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:24, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Kindly stop repeating unfounded accusations against diverse editors. Continuing the discussion above, Pow-wow (folk magic) has 3 words and 18 characters, while Braucherei is one word with 10 characters, so no, it is not more WP:CONCISE. Braucherei is also more WP:PRECISE and WP:NATURAL and is widely used in English-language literature. Yuchitown (talk) 15:50, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

There's nothing WP:NATURAL or WP:CONCISE about trying to remove the common English term in favor of a Pennsylvania German term. There's simply no getting around that the common English term for this practice is unquestionably powwow (including in scholarship) while Braucherei is only commonly used in Pennsylvania German ("While the origin of the term is obscure, powwowing is known as Brauche, or Braucherei, in the Pennsylvania Dutch dialect.").

Have you read any material about this subject? If so, you'd know that every single source in the article makes this clear. In fact, every single source in this article uses powwow as the common name. This is English Wikipedia, not Pennsylvania German Wikipedia.

As for "unfounded accusations", all anyone has to do is scroll up to find many of these newly-arriving editors discussing that they desire to change the article's title because they deem it to be "cultural appropriation" or "culturally insensitive", a classic example of WP:RGW and WP:Activist. In fact, you and most of the other users pushing change the article's title came to this page from [5], which summoned users to come here to respond to "cultural appropriation" (it is in fact posted twice there). :bloodofox: (talk) 16:07, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Concise means shorter; 10 characters is more concise than 18 characters. WP:Natural states: "Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title, is sometimes preferred", so yes, Braucherei is concise and natural. The proper name Braucherei is widely used in English-language literature as I've repeatedly pointed out.[6]. The English-language book, The Red Church: or the Art of Pennsylvania German Braucherei is cited throughout Wikipedia.

No, every single source does not prefer powwow over Braucherei. For exmaple, "The dissemination of magical knowledge in English Germany". Then just because a source mentions powwow doesn't automatically mean the author prefers it over Braucherei.

You keep using the term powwow, but this article's current title is Pow-wow (folk magic), with a hyphen. Pow wow is also written as two words with a space, so there are at least three variations of the term in use.

I am aware that this is the English-language Wikipedia. That is why I am writing to you in English and keep pulling up English-language sources. I have never mentioned cultural appropriation or anything being culturally insensitive, and that isn't my concern.

I support the move to Braucherei because it best fulfills the five criteria for article names: Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Concision, and Consistency. Yuchitown (talk) 17:02, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Article now entirely rewritten

In line with WP:RS and WP:GA standards, I have now rewritten every sentence of this article. Gone are the dead links, vague sources without page numbers, and non-peer-reviewed material. All sources are now securely and transparently cited to experts. There remains much room for expansion here but this is a solid foundation for further development. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:53, 20 March 2025 (UTC)